Rick Joyner : Lee Grady : Todd Bentley Divorce : Charisma Article
Rick Joyner : Lee Grady : Todd Bentley Divorce : Charisma Article
[The recent reaction by Rick Joyner to a Charisma Magazine article by Lee Grady follows this post.]
It has begun. The great shaking of the church has begun, and we are in the very earliest of stages. Much more is coming.
Let me start by saying, I highly value biblical integrity, due process, humility, boldness and love. I know there will be a great falling away, and we must beware of deception. It’s appropriate to prophetically warn a generation of heresy. However, what we’re experiencing too often these days isn’t prophetic warning, but rather prideful presumption. We must simply know that God will warn, and God will judge, but it’s wrapped in extreme love and tenderness.
I’m currently ministering in Detroit, and this particular trip has been extremely unique. I sensed very strongly that a prophetic anointing, a spirit of boldness, power and authority unlike anything any human currently alive has ever experienced, must arise extremely quickly. God’s people, God’s church and God’s plans for a earth-shocking revival are under attack.
There is an accusing, suspicious and mocking spirit that’s unrestrained and mostly not confronted in the church world right now. The self-labeled “Bereans”, who are often operating in a mean-spirited disposition of suspicion and accusation, are unapologetically mocking men and women of God all over the internet. Blog posts, podcasts and YouTube videos targeting ministers, making fun of them, blatantly calling them false prophets, heretics, deceivers and other names are rampant. It’s heart wrenching.
Where is the fear of the Lord? Where is the love of mankind? Where is the intercession for these people? It’s all too often been replaced by mocking and a smirk. My God, we must be humble and we must beware.
Remember, the Berean’s were not counted ‘more noble’ because they were suspicious and doubt-driven as they searched feverishly in the scripture for something they could use to defame people. They were counted more noble because they eagerly received the news of a fresh move of God! They couldn’t wait to dive into scripture! “Look, yes! This is it! Look there and there and there! God is moving in our day!”
Acts 17:11 (NIV) Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Do we understand that the coming revival is going to bring a great and divisive disturbance in the church? In a day where in a growing number of places the gifts of the Spirit are being minimized, and prophecy is despised and the Holy Spirit is quenched as an intentional method of attracting more seekers into our churches, the extreme manifest presence of God is going to serve as a wedge and an offense.
We know scripturally that we will be blessed if we are not offended. We have to be wise, sober, humble and expectant of a reforming, culture-invading move of God that’s personally uncomfortable and socially disruptive. Will there be reports similar to those that resulted from one of the greatest and most strategi
c revivals in human history? Check out the spirit of accusation that was so arrogantly levied against the Azusa Street revival:
Christians from many traditions were critical, saying the movement was hyper-emotional, misused Scripture and lost focus on Christ by overemphasizing the Holy Spirit.[9] Within a short time ministers were warning their congregations to stay away from the Azusa Street Mission. Some called the police and tried to get the building shut down.[10] Scholarly preachers spoke harshly of the revival meetings; such as R. A. Torrey who declared that this new Pentecostal movement was “emphatically not of God, and founded by a Sodomite.” G. Campbell Morgan called it, “the last vomit of Satan.” Harry Ironside said it was “disgusting … delusions and insanities.” Clarence Larkin and many others were also openly critical. By the time the revival ended, it was thought by some that it was the result of Spiritualism. This was thought due to the fact that many occultists and spiritists attended the meetings and were comfortable in their midst.[15]
Do we even know what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is? Do we realize that it’s fully possible that many who have embraced a mocking, unforgiving, graceless attitude, and who report moves of God to be the activity of demons are actually in danger of hell? The fear of God must be on all of us!
Mark 3:29-30 (ESV) 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Now, let’s talk about Todd Bentley. I’m an angered at the number of people who called the Lakeland Outpouring “Godless” and “demonized.” A fire is erupting in my inner man. How dare people (Christian people?) shout to the world that a mighty move of our holy God was actually a mighty move of unholy demons! Does it sound at all like the critical and horrific accusations that were brought against Azusa?
Did Todd Bentley fail? Without any question. Todd nor Rick Joyner would ever say otherwise. Am I concerned for Todd regarding his restoration process? Sure. Do ministers rush back to minister too quickly after failure at times? Yes. Is there a move of holiness and is God’s judgment landing on the church in great measure today? Absolutely.
I was in the tenth row at Jimmy Swaggart’s confession. I ministered with Ted Haggard. My wife and I were receiving prayer by Todd Bentley on stage at Lakeland just a few weeks prior to the revelation of his failure.
All of these men operated in EXTREME anointing, and were massive targets of possibly millions of demons who had no other assignment night and day but to assault them with unrelenting violence. These men are without any exemption to live a righteous life. In fact, their judgment is more severe than the general body would experience. However, they were tragically hurt by demons, by fellow Christians and, yes, by their own avoidable and terrible mistakes. Yet, we cannot pretend we know the situation that only Todd Bentley and his overseers and restoration team could possibly know.
Someone very wisely just mentioned in a conversation on Facebook:
…AND if anyone does actually feel like they have 1. personal relationship with Todd 2. Intimate acquaintance with the details of his personal life and family leading to this situation and still has a problem – they should follow the Biblical mandate of confronting Him as a brother in the Lord (if they know him so well) instead of entertaining speculation on Facebook or blogs, biblically termed as either slander (if it’s false) or gossip (if it’s true).
Wow! Slander or gossip!
Let’s grab God’s bullet points of what He really hates:
Proverbs 6:16-19 (ESV) 16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, 19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
How many of the seven are the finger pointers guilty of? Maybe all of them? The point is, we don’t want to be involved with anything God hates, even if we think it will help advance or protect the church.
Lakeland was extreme, bizarre at times, emotional and a magnet for criticism. Not only were demons attacking Todd Bentley, but a huge segment of the Christian church was defaming, mocking and accusing him! People twisted his words, ripped him to shreds on simple points of miscommunication or on non-absolutes of scripture.
I believe there must be an extreme prophetic anointing arise that will push back this mocking spirit of elitism and unbelief. I applaud Rick Joyner for his response to Lee Grady. We best be careful how we handle such situations. God is in control of Todd Bentley. If he returns too quickly, God will take care of business. It’s actually fairly simple.
Times aren’t going to get more ‘normal’ and marginal. God is about to arrive in power, and it will rock us to our core. Here’s Rick Joyner’s response to Lee Grady:
Rick Joyner’s Response to Lee Grady’s Column, “The Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace”
(Rev. Rick Joyner of Morningstar Ministries sent this response on March 12, 2009)
Lee, I think what you call “the Lakeland disaster” would be disputed by multitudes of people who got healed or touched there. If you are such judge of this what gives you the credentials? What moves of God have you led? What have you built? Paul the apostle claimed to have authority for building and for tearing down, but what gives you authority to tear down the work of others is having built something yourself.
I, Todd, Bill and Jack all know this is a very serious matter, and are treating it as such. I am deeply offended that you would call our work “a travesty.” The Lord had far more grace for sinners than for the self-righteous, who He had no grace for at all. I am personally far more concerned for you than for Todd.
Lee, I love some of the things you write, but I also feel that some are straight from the mouth of the accuser. I do think you have done at least as much damage to the church as Todd’s fall has by your unrighteous and unfair judgments. I don’t think you have earned the credentials for it, and you’re putting yourself in far more jeopardy by trying to be such a self-appointed judge.
I’m quite sure you will misunderstand what I’m saying, and I’m definitely not implying that we want to cover anything up, or promote cheap grace. We have just started the process and its being judged negatively. Give us some time, and some grace. Grace is, by the way, something we are supposed to be giving to each other.
If you care to follow this, Todd and I will be doing Video Special Bulleting each week that will be posted on our website, U-Tube, and carried by many others. These will be short, like the first, only about 10 minutes, but we want to cover the mistakes Todd has made, and as much as we can in the time we have, how he fell into some of the traps he did, strictly for helping others to not have to go through what Todd has. He will no doubt be doing a lot of public apologizing during this time because the public deserves these apologies.
I think you owe Todd, myself, Bill, and Jack apologies for your presumptuous judgments. I think they should be as public as this letter was. If not, I feel that I will have to address this publicly, and I don’t think that is in your best interest.
I also think you need to come down and spend some time with Todd and me. If you have problems with someone we have Matt.18 as a guide to how we should deal with them. Read the first part of that chapter. This was given to help protect people from becoming stumbling blocks, which the Lord made quite clear was something we do not want to be. If you think being a journalist exempts you from complying with Scripture, I would like to know what philosophy you have bought into that trumps Scripture.
Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I don’t mean for it too but I am quite busy and just don’t have the time that I would like to maybe be a bit more tactful.
Ok, let the conversation begin (in love).
John Burton
(Here’s the latest video by Rick Joyner: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1127600550639&ref=mf)
37 Responses to “Rick Joyner : Lee Grady : Todd Bentley Divorce : Charisma Article”
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Wow, I had no idea Charisma ran an article on Todd Bentley. You covered this beautifully.
Amen to Rick Joyner's rebuke. Charisma was wise to print it.
Perhaps part of ushering in revival is allowing Rick Joyner to speak with the authority he has. We need to be the “Blasters,” if you will. Great spouts of water beating away at the mountain side.
Has anyone dared to see that Ricks ministry cost him his marriage? Divorce hit 3 major ministries in the central FL corridor. Todd's marriage has noting to do with whether or not God was there. Any one attacking the revivals validity was obviously untouched, and possibly for good reason. We cannot comprehend the spiritual with the mind. Nor can we define The Almighty with our narrow limited understanding. Yet people need to correct a wrong to keep the attention off their own sin.
(Now you got me all fired up.) Let's light many fires and take this to the springs where the revolution will begin.
Wow, I had no idea Charisma ran an article on Todd Bentley. You covered this beautifully.
Amen to Rick Joyner's rebuke. Charisma was wise to print it.
Perhaps part of ushering in revival is allowing Rick Joyner to speak with the authority he has. We need to be the “Blasters,” if you will. Great spouts of water beating away at the mountain side.
Has anyone dared to see that Ricks ministry cost him his marriage? Divorce hit 3 major ministries in the central FL corridor. Todd's marriage has noting to do with whether or not God was there. Any one attacking the revivals validity was obviously untouched, and possibly for good reason. We cannot comprehend the spiritual with the mind. Nor can we define The Almighty with our narrow limited understanding. Yet people need to correct a wrong to keep the attention off their own sin.
(Now you got me all fired up.) Let's light many fires and take this to the springs where the revolution will begin.
Sadly, I felt like Rick Joyner's rebuke was angry and a bit condescending. Admittedly, I didn't read Lee Grady's article, so I don't know what was said, but I think that Rick had an opportunity to both speak truth, and radiate the love of Christ. While he succeeded in the first part, I don't think he succeeded in the second.
I wish he had maybe taken a few days to cool off before writing that, but I don't know the whole story….
In the video link that you posted, Rick mentions that in Galations 6:1 'him who is spiritual should restore' the one who is caught in sin…I'm not exactly sure this means 'restore' him directly back in to ministry. Yes, THIS area maybe restored…but who knows what other pit fall is there. Imho, I think the man Todd Bentley needs to do a DEEP searching within until he takes on the mantle of ministry again for many reasons. One, he has a tremendous amount of responsiblity and accountability to God for EVERY person he is touching (does not scripture say?) AND second, if he IS not completely restored (if things are rushed in the name of 'ministry') then will not those 'demons' some have called that which attacked Todd during his ministry come back 7 times?? This is not something to be taken lightly. Just my thoughts.
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
Wow, I had no idea Charisma ran an article on Todd Bentley. You covered this beautifully.
Amen to Rick Joyner's rebuke. Charisma was wise to print it.
Perhaps part of ushering in revival is allowing Rick Joyner to speak with the authority he has. We need to be the “Blasters,” if you will. Great spouts of water beating away at the mountain side.
Has anyone dared to see that Ricks ministry cost him his marriage? Divorce hit 3 major ministries in the central FL corridor. Todd's marriage has noting to do with whether or not God was there. Any one attacking the revivals validity was obviously untouched, and possibly for good reason. We cannot comprehend the spiritual with the mind. Nor can we define The Almighty with our narrow limited understanding. Yet people need to correct a wrong to keep the attention off their own sin.
(Now you got me all fired up.) Let's light many fires and take this to the springs where the revolution will begin.
Wow, I had no idea Charisma ran an article on Todd Bentley. You covered this beautifully.
Amen to Rick Joyner's rebuke. Charisma was wise to print it.
Perhaps part of ushering in revival is allowing Rick Joyner to speak with the authority he has. We need to be the “Blasters,” if you will. Great spouts of water beating away at the mountain side.
Has anyone dared to see that Ricks ministry cost him his marriage? Divorce hit 3 major ministries in the central FL corridor. Todd's marriage has noting to do with whether or not God was there. Any one attacking the revivals validity was obviously untouched, and possibly for good reason. We cannot comprehend the spiritual with the mind. Nor can we define The Almighty with our narrow limited understanding. Yet people need to correct a wrong to keep the attention off their own sin.
(Now you got me all fired up.) Let's light many fires and take this to the springs where the revolution will begin.
Sadly, I felt like Rick Joyner's rebuke was angry and a bit condescending. Admittedly, I didn't read Lee Grady's article, so I don't know what was said, but I think that Rick had an opportunity to both speak truth, and radiate the love of Christ. While he succeeded in the first part, I don't think he succeeded in the second.
I wish he had maybe taken a few days to cool off before writing that, but I don't know the whole story….
In the video link that you posted, Rick mentions that in Galations 6:1 'him who is spiritual should restore' the one who is caught in sin…I'm not exactly sure this means 'restore' him directly back in to ministry. Yes, THIS area maybe restored…but who knows what other pit fall is there. Imho, I think the man Todd Bentley needs to do a DEEP searching within until he takes on the mantle of ministry again for many reasons. One, he has a tremendous amount of responsiblity and accountability to God for EVERY person he is touching (does not scripture say?) AND second, if he IS not completely restored (if things are rushed in the name of 'ministry') then will not those 'demons' some have called that which attacked Todd during his ministry come back 7 times?? This is not something to be taken lightly. Just my thoughts.
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
This is so right on!!! I find this is so many churches today, judgement, judgement, judgement, where's the grace. If it wasn't for grace none of us would be here today! We need to pray for the “christians”. I have been prayed for by Todd many times and sat under his teaching in his school when he was in Toronto, he is an awesome man of God. Remember we all have sinned and God makes us clean. I fell into the same trap and what happen to Todd, happen to me many years ago and if it wasn't for a core group of christians and Jesus, I would not have been restored, since I was so badly judged. My heart goes out to Todd and I know he will get through this, if I can he can.
Blessings,
Darlene
This is so right on!!! I find this is so many churches today, judgement, judgement, judgement, where's the grace. If it wasn't for grace none of us would be here today! We need to pray for the “christians”. I have been prayed for by Todd many times and sat under his teaching in his school when he was in Toronto, he is an awesome man of God. Remember we all have sinned and God makes us clean. I fell into the same trap and what happen to Todd, happen to me many years ago and if it wasn't for a core group of christians and Jesus, I would not have been restored, since I was so badly judged. My heart goes out to Todd and I know he will get through this, if I can he can.
Blessings,
Darlene
I attended the Lakeland meetings with my whole family, In fact we were all on the platform. I also have been involved with Morningstar and have followed Rick Joyner's ministry since the early 1990's. I am also a big fan of Lee Grady with Charisma, who is one of the few writers with the guts to call it like it is.
As for the Lakeland meetings – when we were there on April 25, 2008, I was deeply touched by the Lord and recognized the tangible presence of God. Did I also recognize errors? And as he weeks passed, there seemed to be a change – which continued on until Todd left. But as Kenneth Hagin used to say, “Eat the hay and spit out the sticks.” Having come through the Toronto renewal, I was used to the unusual. The Holy Spirit has given us the ability to discern, and we should KNOW what is real and what is not. However, we are all earthen vessels, and the Holy Spirit has to work through our unique personalities and world views. Sometimes, they can get in the way! And sin can definitely quench the flow of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with what Rick Joyner has said in his rebuke to Lee Grady, but I, too, sense some anger on his part. One thing is for sure. The Lakeland meetings had the attention of the whole world, and the whole world was watching to see it fail! The Spirit of God didn't fail. The vessel failed – a vessel who was young and had not experienced enough refiner's fire. Temptations of the flesh will always be knocking at the door, and I wasn't surprised by what happened. I could tell that Todd was young, and that he may have been getting carried away by what was happening around him.
While we cannot stand in judgment of another man's servant, we also cannot judge those who are inspecting fruit. I don't believe that Lee Grady is a judgmental person. I believe that he was speaking a hard word based on the facts that he had. People's reaction to it are going to be biased by their own opinions. But either way, I don't believe that Jesus would be contentious about it – at least not publicly.
I do agree with Rick that the falling away is upon us, but we (individually and corporately) need to watch and pray, and be discerning. While there will be a great revival filled with signs and wonders, there will also be a counterfeit. It is up to us to KNOW OUR GOD so that when the hour comes, we will KNOW the difference for ourselves. (Listen to Mike Bickle's teaching on the coming Apostate Church.)
I attended the Lakeland meetings with my whole family, In fact we were all on the platform. I also have been involved with Morningstar and have followed Rick Joyner's ministry since the early 1990's. I am also a big fan of Lee Grady with Charisma, who is one of the few writers with the guts to call it like it is.
As for the Lakeland meetings – when we were there on April 25, 2008, I was deeply touched by the Lord and recognized the tangible presence of God. Did I also recognize errors? And as he weeks passed, there seemed to be a change – which continued on until Todd left. But as Kenneth Hagin used to say, “Eat the hay and spit out the sticks.” Having come through the Toronto renewal, I was used to the unusual. The Holy Spirit has given us the ability to discern, and we should KNOW what is real and what is not. However, we are all earthen vessels, and the Holy Spirit has to work through our unique personalities and world views. Sometimes, they can get in the way! And sin can definitely quench the flow of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with what Rick Joyner has said in his rebuke to Lee Grady, but I, too, sense some anger on his part. One thing is for sure. The Lakeland meetings had the attention of the whole world, and the whole world was watching to see it fail! The Spirit of God didn't fail. The vessel failed – a vessel who was young and had not experienced enough refiner's fire. Temptations of the flesh will always be knocking at the door, and I wasn't surprised by what happened. I could tell that Todd was young, and that he may have been getting carried away by what was happening around him.
While we cannot stand in judgment of another man's servant, we also cannot judge those who are inspecting fruit. I don't believe that Lee Grady is a judgmental person. I believe that he was speaking a hard word based on the facts that he had. People's reaction to it are going to be biased by their own opinions. But either way, I don't believe that Jesus would be contentious about it – at least not publicly.
I do agree with Rick that the falling away is upon us, but we (individually and corporately) need to watch and pray, and be discerning. While there will be a great revival filled with signs and wonders, there will also be a counterfeit. It is up to us to KNOW OUR GOD so that when the hour comes, we will KNOW the difference for ourselves. (Listen to Mike Bickle's teaching on the coming Apostate Church.)
I attended the Lakeland meetings with my whole family, In fact we were all on the platform. I also have been involved with Morningstar and have followed Rick Joyner's ministry since the early 1990's. I am also a big fan of Lee Grady with Charisma, who is one of the few writers with the guts to call it like it is.
As for the Lakeland meetings – when we were there on April 25, 2008, I was deeply touched by the Lord and recognized the tangible presence of God. Did I also recognize errors? And as he weeks passed, there seemed to be a change – which continued on until Todd left. But as Kenneth Hagin used to say, “Eat the hay and spit out the sticks.” Having come through the Toronto renewal, I was used to the unusual. The Holy Spirit has given us the ability to discern, and we should KNOW what is real and what is not. However, we are all earthen vessels, and the Holy Spirit has to work through our unique personalities and world views. Sometimes, they can get in the way! And sin can definitely quench the flow of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with what Rick Joyner has said in his rebuke to Lee Grady, but I, too, sense some anger on his part. One thing is for sure. The Lakeland meetings had the attention of the whole world, and the whole world was watching to see it fail! The Spirit of God didn't fail. The vessel failed – a vessel who was young and had not experienced enough refiner's fire. Temptations of the flesh will always be knocking at the door, and I wasn't surprised by what happened. I could tell that Todd was young, and that he may have been getting carried away by what was happening around him.
While we cannot stand in judgment of another man's servant, we also cannot judge those who are inspecting fruit. I don't believe that Lee Grady is a judgmental person. I believe that he was speaking a hard word based on the facts that he had. People's reaction to it are going to be biased by their own opinions. But either way, I don't believe that Jesus would be contentious about it – at least not publicly.
I do agree with Rick that the falling away is upon us, but we (individually and corporately) need to watch and pray, and be discerning. While there will be a great revival filled with signs and wonders, there will also be a counterfeit. It is up to us to KNOW OUR GOD so that when the hour comes, we will KNOW the difference for ourselves. (Listen to Mike Bickle's teaching on the coming Apostate Church.)
I attended the Lakeland meetings with my whole family, In fact we were all on the platform. I also have been involved with Morningstar and have followed Rick Joyner's ministry since the early 1990's. I am also a big fan of Lee Grady with Charisma, who is one of the few writers with the guts to call it like it is.
As for the Lakeland meetings – when we were there on April 25, 2008, I was deeply touched by the Lord and recognized the tangible presence of God. Did I also recognize errors? And as he weeks passed, there seemed to be a change – which continued on until Todd left. But as Kenneth Hagin used to say, “Eat the hay and spit out the sticks.” Having come through the Toronto renewal, I was used to the unusual. The Holy Spirit has given us the ability to discern, and we should KNOW what is real and what is not. However, we are all earthen vessels, and the Holy Spirit has to work through our unique personalities and world views. Sometimes, they can get in the way! And sin can definitely quench the flow of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with what Rick Joyner has said in his rebuke to Lee Grady, but I, too, sense some anger on his part. One thing is for sure. The Lakeland meetings had the attention of the whole world, and the whole world was watching to see it fail! The Spirit of God didn't fail. The vessel failed – a vessel who was young and had not experienced enough refiner's fire. Temptations of the flesh will always be knocking at the door, and I wasn't surprised by what happened. I could tell that Todd was young, and that he may have been getting carried away by what was happening around him.
While we cannot stand in judgment of another man's servant, we also cannot judge those who are inspecting fruit. I don't believe that Lee Grady is a judgmental person. I believe that he was speaking a hard word based on the facts that he had. People's reaction to it are going to be biased by their own opinions. But either way, I don't believe that Jesus would be contentious about it – at least not publicly.
I do agree with Rick that the falling away is upon us, but we (individually and corporately) need to watch and pray, and be discerning. While there will be a great revival filled with signs and wonders, there will also be a counterfeit. It is up to us to KNOW OUR GOD so that when the hour comes, we will KNOW the difference for ourselves. (Listen to Mike Bickle's teaching on the coming Apostate Church.)
Wow. I hadn't seen Rick's response. Thanks for posting it.
Wow. I hadn't seen Rick's response. Thanks for posting it.
Thank you John. It is so sad that we will have to endure the coming storm of controversy that will surround the revival we have prayed for. But in the long run you and I know that the Lord will use even “the accuser of the brethren” to purify us all and cause us to grow in humility and grace, by His Holy Spirit. Thank you for proactively responding to the current issues with truth and clarity.
You bet… I agree, the Lord will use many types of people to help keep us grounded, aware, humble. Absolutely.
Thank you John. It is so sad that we will have to endure the coming storm of controversy that will surround the revival we have prayed for. But in the long run you and I know that the Lord will use even “the accuser of the brethren” to purify us all and cause us to grow in humility and grace, by His Holy Spirit. Thank you for proactively responding to the current issues with truth and clarity.
You bet… I agree, the Lord will use many types of people to help keep us grounded, aware, humble. Absolutely.
Please do read Lee Grady's article if you can. I think it is very fair and biblical. He makes some very good points.
Please do read Lee Grady's article if you can. I think it is very fair and biblical. He makes some very good points.
Please do read Lee Grady's article if you can. I think it is very fair and biblical. He makes some very good points.
Please do read Lee Grady's article if you can. I think it is very fair and biblical. He makes some very good points.
Dear Ones',
We remember how the Apostle Paul wanted the church at Corinth to handle the situation w/the young man who had fell into sin, because they had ignored his blatant sin, then we read according to 2d Corinthians they went overboard in there discipline and Paul urged them to receive him back. Now of course this young brother had appeared unrepentant, for which we hear and some have witnessed Bro. Todd repentant publicly, but in the end only the Lord knows, let us remember man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on and examines the heart. We all have differing opinions on this situation, but let us agree on one thing that sin has consequences, whether we like the consequence or not its a consequence nonetheless, its not about condoning the slander and gossip but understanding the reasons. God told the children of Israel according to the bk of Lev, “when you stop acting like the chastisement I have brought upon you is some strange thing, and come to your senses about your sin, then will I deliver and restore you.” My point is friends, you defuse the slandering and gossiping w/accountability and responsibility not acting like some strange thing is going on when we sin and people get a hold of it (saved or heathen). When they were accusing the Lord (who already knew who he was and where he was going back to) never said a word and then like Paul according to the bk of Acts we have to defend ourselves, but of course the (2) I speak of were innocent of the accusations. To those who are continuously slandering and gossiping about Bro. Todd perhaps let us examine the scripture when the Lord said, “those of you without sin, be the first to cast the stone” and let us who feel we need to rush to the defense, yes support our brother or brothers' who have fallen into sin, but also help them to be accountable and responsible and recognize we reap what we have sowed, if you sow to the flesh you shall reap of the flesh and most of the time when we fall into sin its not going to have positive consequences, the consequence many times will be painful and discouraging, but when we say according to the bk of Micah, “I will bear the indignation of the Lord, for I have sinned against him”, then friends regardless of what anyone says the cleansing and restoration will most definetely begin. Then we will say as David did, “Restore unto me the joy of your salvation oh LORD and give me a willing spirit to sustain me, then will I teach transgessors your ways (be a testimony of what to do and not to do) and sinners will come back to you.” I'm sure the nation of Israel and all the nations around Israel, slandered and gossiped to know end about David's sin w/Bathesheba, but inspite of God cleansed and washed him, because David manfully accepted and understood the consequences of what he brought on himslef, his family and the nation, he did not seek the understanding or the forgiveness of man, but sought the understanding and forgiveness of a merciful God (who delights in mercy) but also must judge sin in whatever manner he choses to mature us into not making the same mistake again. David and Jacob, both teach us the consequences of sin are many times unending, yes God's anger is but for a moment and he always looks to restore his wayward children “I'm married to the backslider” but the consequences of our sin are unavoidable. I believe God expects us to manfully understand the consequences of our sin deal w/what we've brought on ourselves, asking him to grant us the grace to deal w/the backlash that many times is brought onto us by him, remember what he said to David, “I will raise up evil against you out of your own house” and let him silence the defamers in time. Loving you all.
Dear Ones',
We remember how the Apostle Paul wanted the church at Corinth to handle the situation w/the young man who had fell into sin, because they had ignored his blatant sin, then we read according to 2d Corinthians they went overboard in there discipline and Paul urged them to receive him back. Now of course this young brother had appeared unrepentant, for which we hear and some have witnessed Bro. Todd repentant publicly, but in the end only the Lord knows, let us remember man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on and examines the heart. We all have differing opinions on this situation, but let us agree on one thing that sin has consequences, whether we like the consequence or not its a consequence nonetheless, its not about condoning the slander and gossip but understanding the reasons. God told the children of Israel according to the bk of Lev, “when you stop acting like the chastisement I have brought upon you is some strange thing, and come to your senses about your sin, then will I deliver and restore you.” My point is friends, you defuse the slandering and gossiping w/accountability and responsibility not acting like some strange thing is going on when we sin and people get a hold of it (saved or heathen). When they were accusing the Lord (who already knew who he was and where he was going back to) never said a word and then like Paul according to the bk of Acts we have to defend ourselves, but of course the (2) I speak of were innocent of the accusations. To those who are continuously slandering and gossiping about Bro. Todd perhaps let us examine the scripture when the Lord said, “those of you without sin, be the first to cast the stone” and let us who feel we need to rush to the defense, yes support our brother or brothers' who have fallen into sin, but also help them to be accountable and responsible and recognize we reap what we have sowed, if you sow to the flesh you shall reap of the flesh and most of the time when we fall into sin its not going to have positive consequences, the consequence many times will be painful and discouraging, but when we say according to the bk of Micah, “I will bear the indignation of the Lord, for I have sinned against him”, then friends regardless of what anyone says the cleansing and restoration will most definetely begin. Then we will say as David did, “Restore unto me the joy of your salvation oh LORD and give me a willing spirit to sustain me, then will I teach transgessors your ways (be a testimony of what to do and not to do) and sinners will come back to you.” I'm sure the nation of Israel and all the nations around Israel, slandered and gossiped to know end about David's sin w/Bathesheba, but inspite of God cleansed and washed him, because David manfully accepted and understood the consequences of what he brought on himslef, his family and the nation, he did not seek the understanding or the forgiveness of man, but sought the understanding and forgiveness of a merciful God (who delights in mercy) but also must judge sin in whatever manner he choses to mature us into not making the same mistake again. David and Jacob, both teach us the consequences of sin are many times unending, yes God's anger is but for a moment and he always looks to restore his wayward children “I'm married to the backslider” but the consequences of our sin are unavoidable. I believe God expects us to manfully understand the consequences of our sin deal w/what we've brought on ourselves, asking him to grant us the grace to deal w/the backlash that many times is brought onto us by him, remember what he said to David, “I will raise up evil against you out of your own house” and let him silence the defamers in time. Loving you all.
Beloved Sister,
I was reading your post, and allow me to say, what a complete opinion you presented. You showed no partiality nor biasness, as we are to study the “whole” counsel of God, so have you presented yourself on this topic of discussion. I discerned no narrow mindness w/you, but only a desire to see things as they are, especially when you said “fruit inspectors”, for we know the Lord said, “a tree will be known by its fruit, can a good tree bring forth bad fruit, and can a bad tree bring forth good fruit.” I saw you mention accountability and responsibility on both sides of the fence, not just the one you might've showed favoritism with. And your mentioning of the great apostasy (which was beginning during the times of the Apostles) showed your understanding of the condition of the present condition of the church outlined by Christ himself in the bk of Rev. I have edified you enough (smile) continue allowing the Lord, to open your heart and mind to his word, will, and wisdom. May blessings be upon you.
Beloved Sister,
I was reading your post, and allow me to say, what a complete opinion you presented. You showed no partiality nor biasness, as we are to study the “whole” counsel of God, so have you presented yourself on this topic of discussion. I discerned no narrow mindness w/you, but only a desire to see things as they are, especially when you said “fruit inspectors”, for we know the Lord said, “a tree will be known by its fruit, can a good tree bring forth bad fruit, and can a bad tree bring forth good fruit.” I saw you mention accountability and responsibility on both sides of the fence, not just the one you might've showed favoritism with. And your mentioning of the great apostasy (which was beginning during the times of the Apostles) showed your understanding of the condition of the present condition of the church outlined by Christ himself in the bk of Rev. I have edified you enough (smile) continue allowing the Lord, to open your heart and mind to his word, will, and wisdom. May blessings be upon you.
Now, granted I have not read Lee's article, but I noticed what Rick was saying in his in first paragraph: “If you are such judge of this what gives you the credentials? What moves of God have you led? What have you built? Paul the apostle claimed to have authority for building and for tearing down, but what gives you authority to tear down the work of others is having built something yourself.”
It looks like he's saying, “only we can say anything about Lakeland or Todd, you can't because you are not up here at our level.” So, because I haven't led a big ministry, I can't express any wrongs I see or discern? I thought God can use anyone, but I guess I was wrong. These people want prophets to rise up but then say they have no authority to speak because they might not like what they say. My question to Rick is how big of a ministry or move of God do I have to lead in order to earn the right to say anything critical?
On another note I keep seeing people saying how Todd was under pressure and attacks from so many demons and critics and he had so much responsibility. Let's say for a second that I fall into the same sin. I haven't led a movement of that magnitude or faced those kinds of pressures, so is my sin more heinous than Todd's because of that? It makes me sick because when you really look at it everyone has made Todd a martyr for falling into sin.
I just read Lee Grady's article and you know what, Lee was right, and was actually far more gracious than Rick was. But of course, Lee hasn't led a move of God so how dare he?
Now, granted I have not read Lee's article, but I noticed what Rick was saying in his in first paragraph: “If you are such judge of this what gives you the credentials? What moves of God have you led? What have you built? Paul the apostle claimed to have authority for building and for tearing down, but what gives you authority to tear down the work of others is having built something yourself.”
It looks like he's saying, “only we can say anything about Lakeland or Todd, you can't because you are not up here at our level.” So, because I haven't led a big ministry, I can't express any wrongs I see or discern? I thought God can use anyone, but I guess I was wrong. These people want prophets to rise up but then say they have no authority to speak because they might not like what they say. My question to Rick is how big of a ministry or move of God do I have to lead in order to earn the right to say anything critical?
On another note I keep seeing people saying how Todd was under pressure and attacks from so many demons and critics and he had so much responsibility. Let's say for a second that I fall into the same sin. I haven't led a movement of that magnitude or faced those kinds of pressures, so is my sin more heinous than Todd's because of that? It makes me sick because when you really look at it everyone has made Todd a martyr for falling into sin.
I just read Lee Grady's article and you know what, Lee was right, and was actually far more gracious than Rick was. But of course, Lee hasn't led a move of God so how dare he?
Rick did address something very important. We don't have the right to haphazardly announce our negative critiques of another person. There is appropriate biblical protocol for that, appropriate authority structures to consider. For me to rip at someone whom I have no direct relationship is irresponsible.
Now, does Todd's authority have a right and responsibility to bring correction? Yes. Without question. However, though we may have concerns, the rest of us must humbly pray and intercede and serve the process of healing and restoration. To do so doesn't condone sin, but rather, it ministers to the one who fell into sin.
The letter you read from Rick was supposed to be private, between him and Lee… but, for some reason, Lee took the liberty to share it publicly.
Rick did address something very important. We don't have the right to haphazardly announce our negative critiques of another person. There is appropriate biblical protocol for that, appropriate authority structures to consider. For me to rip at someone whom I have no direct relationship is irresponsible.
Now, does Todd's authority have a right and responsibility to bring correction? Yes. Without question. However, though we may have concerns, the rest of us must humbly pray and intercede and serve the process of healing and restoration. To do so doesn't condone sin, but rather, it ministers to the one who fell into sin.
The letter you read from Rick was supposed to be private, between him and Lee… but, for some reason, Lee took the liberty to share it publicly.
Wow! I am truly awed by the scale of delusional thinking here. As long as Todd gets to proclaim and determine his own "authority," guess what? He WILL! Is there any common sense available in your part of the world? I think I'll just kick back and let "God take charge." Let's see if that works any better today than it has for the last 3000 years. I won't be holding my breath, though. Watching Doctor Who makes more sense.