A suspicious spirit : Heresy hunters : A critical discussion : Todd Bentley : Rick Joyner : Gossip : Slander
A suspicious spirit : Heresy hunters : A critical discussion : Todd Bentley : Rick Joyner : Gossip : Slander
It’s either gossip or slander.
Brilliant. That’s some wisdom I gleaned from one of the many recent comments on my blog and my Facebook note regarding the discussion of Rick Joyner’s handling of Todd Bentley’s restoration.
The internet has unwittingly granted many permission to defy biblical principles and standards of discipline by blasting men and women of God behind their backs.
Have we forgotten Matthew 18 protocol? Todd Bentley’s sins have been brought before him. He has publically repented, and is in the direct and constant care of extremely reputable, humble and wise men of God.
Look at a part of the passage in Matthew 18:
Matthew 18:17 (NIV) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
If he refuses to listen, tell it to the church. What are we doing? Todd HAS listened, and we’re telling it to the world! If you look further up in Matthew 18, we see a stern warning- if a member of our body causes us to sin, we must cut it off! May I propose that there are blogging slanderers and gossips who would be better eternally served if they had no fingers to type with?
Matthew 18:8 (NIV) If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Rick Joyner is following scriptural protocol beautifully. Since we’re in Matthew 18, let’s look at another portion that Rick understands better than most:
Matthew 18:12-14 (NIV) 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
Rick Joyner served Jim Bakker when the majority of the church was mocking him. Rick Joyner is again acting with the love of an apostolic father by serving Todd Bentley.
If Todd Bentley fails under Rick’s care, it’s none of our business! How dare we entertain an evil desire to ‘out’ Todd, expose him, rebuke him and cast him out! Matthew 18 does not give us permission to do this! Many are in extreme and dangerous violation of God’s standards! How many times have you failed and repented each week?
Should everybody with an internet connection know about it?
Some of you may presume that I am embracing a loose lifestyle. This couldn’t be further from the truth. God’s judgment, which is wrapped in passionate love, is arriving now quite heavily. It’s only going to increase. I don’t embrace the false grace doctrine that’s floating around out there. But I do embrace scripture. I do embrace the deep love that God has for people, and I do trust God’s wisdom in handling issues of sin in the camp.
There is a doubting and suspicious spirit that is rampant in the church, and it must be dealt with immediately.
I have a question. Why do so many find it necessary or appropriate to share negative or dissenting opinions about other believers? What’s the purpose of that? What benefit is there?
I know a strong and offensive prophetic spirit is about to hit the church and the world, so I’m not attempting to communicate that conflict should be avoided. But, this prophetic spirit will hit at principalities, powers and rulers. It will hit people who are clearly violating agreed absolutes of scripture, and are repeatedly unrepentant. It won’t take out the knees of failed people who have a hungry heart for restoration.
The heresy hunter spirit must be taken out. It’s a false-Berean attitude. It’s playing with the unpardonable sin.
I’m about to get on a plane, so I need to close, but let me make my points clear:
- Rick Joyner has a mighty heart and is putting a lot on the line for a repentant sheep
- Matthew 18 protocol cannot be ignored
- Why do we feel it necessary to gossip and share our opinions with the world?
- God’s judgment is going to increase, and holiness must again take center stage
- Discipline in the church will actually be embraced again
- The unpardonable sin must be understood as many are at great eternal risk
- God is love
34 Responses to “A suspicious spirit : Heresy hunters : A critical discussion : Todd Bentley : Rick Joyner : Gossip : Slander”
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In your first bullet point, are you meaning Rick Joyner and not Rick Warren? Rick Warren hasn't gotten involved, has he? If so, I hadn't heard about that.
I really like Todd a lot and hope for the best for him.
The one area that I didn't like about all this is his rapid remarriage. It breaks my heart. Other ministers I respect have remarried after a divorce too. It just doesn't sit right with me, and makes me grieve. But I harbor no bitterness against these ministers, and still respect them.
That being said, I agree with you about the heresy hunter spirit. That spirit has a real vindictive feel to it, and doesn't hope for the best but seeks to destroy and demean. There is no place for that in the body!
But I also don't think I'm sinning for having concerns about the standards of marriage that we in this country seem to trample at a whim.
That's my piece.
Thanks
I can say, this is a really good artikel about the sin of church people. The sin what they judge is the sam as the sin of judging. We realy nead God's mercy for the church. I am from The Netherlands and here is the same situation. We need to pray for the church, we are in need for mercy of God.
In your first bullet point, are you meaning Rick Joyner and not Rick Warren? Rick Warren hasn't gotten involved, has he? If so, I hadn't heard about that.
I really like Todd a lot and hope for the best for him.
The one area that I didn't like about all this is his rapid remarriage. It breaks my heart. Other ministers I respect have remarried after a divorce too. It just doesn't sit right with me, and makes me grieve. But I harbor no bitterness against these ministers, and still respect them.
That being said, I agree with you about the heresy hunter spirit. That spirit has a real vindictive feel to it, and doesn't hope for the best but seeks to destroy and demean. There is no place for that in the body!
But I also don't think I'm sinning for having concerns about the standards of marriage that we in this country seem to trample at a whim.
That's my piece.
Thanks
I agree the rapid remarriage may not have been appriopriate… but, it's not my place to figure all of that out for Todd. I don't know him. I'm sure there's a lot of details I'm not privileged to.
HI John,
Some may have forgotten Matt 18 (according to you but our house church practices very outfront) but I believe the Body of Christ has swallowed the lie that we can not “judge”. A simple word search of the word judge might be fruitful for some. Let me ask you what did Paul do to the man who was in adultery with his mother-in.law? What happen to turning people over to destruction so there soul might be saved?? I am so tired of hearing this lame teaching with no foundation in the Word!!
Have you forgotten Romans 2? What about 1 Corinthians 5? How about 1 Corinthians 6? How about Hebrew 13? Should we just cut these out of our Bible. I am so tired of thinking discerning people who see Joyner and Bentley as the charlatans they are being vilified!!
I can say, this is a really good artikel about the sin of church people. The sin what they judge is the sam as the sin of judging. We realy nead God's mercy for the church. I am from The Netherlands and here is the same situation. We need to pray for the church, we are in need for mercy of God.
Of course, we are to judge. I agree… but, not as rogue abusers of God's people. We must understand protocol, process, who's the appropriate person to bring the judgment, etc.
We must remember- Todd is repentant! Judgment by man is over. Done. Why would anybody want to do more damage? It's a demonic strategy. People love doctrine more than people, and it is showing now more than ever. It's not either/or, it's both/and. If we apply biblical doctrine to issues like this, the result will be zealous love!
Remember, I agreed with you that church discipline must be embraced. But, the scriptures you are referring to have to do with the unrepentant. Todd Bentley is your brother, you must love him, serve him and embrace him! Not expel him! My goodness!!
Yep, good catch. Thanks… it's fixed now.
That line 'Todd is repentant' just struck me.
You're right. He's taking full responsibility for his actions, and not trying to justify them. He's not making documentaries justifying or blaming others about why he fell. He's seeking Godly counsel and seems to be genuinely repentant.
Wow… light bulb moment.
John, thanks for what you do here. I'm going to give him all the grace I can muster up!
I agree the rapid remarriage may not have been appriopriate… but, it's not my place to figure all of that out for Todd. I don't know him. I'm sure there's a lot of details I'm not privileged to.
HI John,
Some may have forgotten Matt 18 (according to you but our house church practices very outfront) but I believe the Body of Christ has swallowed the lie that we can not “judge”. A simple word search of the word judge might be fruitful for some. Let me ask you what did Paul do to the man who was in adultery with his mother-in.law? What happen to turning people over to destruction so there soul might be saved?? I am so tired of hearing this lame teaching with no foundation in the Word!!
Have you forgotten Romans 2? What about 1 Corinthians 5? How about 1 Corinthians 6? How about Hebrew 13? Should we just cut these out of our Bible. I am so tired of thinking discerning people who see Joyner and Bentley as the charlatans they are being vilified!!
Of course, we are to judge. I agree… but, not as rogue abusers of God's people. We must understand protocol, process, who's the appropriate person to bring the judgment, etc.
We must remember- Todd is repentant! Judgment by man is over. Done. Why would anybody want to do more damage? It's a demonic strategy. People love doctrine more than people, and it is showing now more than ever. It's not either/or, it's both/and. If we apply biblical doctrine to issues like this, the result will be zealous love!
Remember, I agreed with you that church discipline must be embraced. But, the scriptures you are referring to have to do with the unrepentant. Todd Bentley is your brother, you must love him, serve him and embrace him! Not expel him! My goodness!!
Yep, good catch. Thanks… it's fixed now.
That line 'Todd is repentant' just struck me.
You're right. He's taking full responsibility for his actions, and not trying to justify them. He's not making documentaries justifying or blaming others about why he fell. He's seeking Godly counsel and seems to be genuinely repentant.
Wow… light bulb moment.
John, thanks for what you do here. I'm going to give him all the grace I can muster up!
Repentant? Full responsibility?
What about those boys he sexually assaulted???
Do u think we are taking care of widows and orphans by putting this man at the forefront of our beliefs as christians?
He is not responsible, he is NOT healed. He is repeating all of the sins done to him, and done by him over and over again!!
divorce, gangs, Joel's army, sexual assault, theivery…….
he is faithless.
he is unsaved.
he will be judged.
Repentant? Full responsibility?
What about those boys he sexually assaulted???
Do u think we are taking care of widows and orphans by putting this man at the forefront of our beliefs as christians?
He is not responsible, he is NOT healed. He is repeating all of the sins done to him, and done by him over and over again!!
divorce, gangs, Joel's army, sexual assault, theivery…….
he is faithless.
he is unsaved.
he will be judged.
How in the world can you know the condition of another person's heart? You are handling this with a vendetta, with anger… I don't sense love for Todd at all in your post.
You should notice that Todd has been judged. Now, what would you propose? Abandon him? Hate him?
To presume you, of all the billions of people on the earth, have the insight necessary and the authority necessary to deem absolutely that Todd Bentley is unsaved is arrogant and simply silly.
It's almost like you want him to be hurt! You want him slandered. Why? That's not at all Christ-like.
Who's put Todd Bentley at the forefront of our beliefs as Christians?
I keep wondering why 'Joel's Army' is in the list of alleged sins… weird.
How in the world can you know the condition of another person's heart? You are handling this with a vendetta, with anger… I don't sense love for Todd at all in your post.
You should notice that Todd has been judged. Now, what would you propose? Abandon him? Hate him?
To presume you, of all the billions of people on the earth, have the insight necessary and the authority necessary to deem absolutely that Todd Bentley is unsaved is arrogant and simply silly.
It's almost like you want him to be hurt! You want him slandered. Why? That's not at all Christ-like.
Who's put Todd Bentley at the forefront of our beliefs as Christians?
Hi Lindy,
First, The Romans and Hebrews chapters do not have to do with Christians judging other Christians, in the sense they have a right. Infact Paul rebukes the Roman church for doing that in Romans 2, instead commending them to let God judge their hearts, presenting the same principle that Jesus laid, the same measure by which you judge will be used against you. Hebrews 13 says to regard our leaders highly, Hebrews 12 speaks to us though on the discipline of God, but no where in this chapter does it give us as the church room to be involved in the process.
With that said, I want to address regarding Paul and how he handled the Corinthian church in context of what was happening to the church. When you are reading the correction of the Corinthian Church you cannot separate one point to make a point without understanding the context of what was happening to the church as a whole. The entire local church had been caught up into major sinful lifestyles…debauchery, sexual immorality, ect., taking advantage of the complete freedom that comes in Christ. (see 1 Cor 6:12) and looking at the situation as a whole, we understand Paul, as an apostolic authority to that church is bringing correction to the entire church there, not just individuals. He is bringing in individual examples to show what is happening in the church as a whole. Paul was a leader who was close to the church and situation and was also someone trusted. Also we should mention that is was PAUL who was the one who had a right and responsibility to bring correction to the man, not the body. Paul does come down on the “local leadership” of the church for not bringing correction, again, not the whole church. Paul tells us that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable, and then gives the church guidelines for what would be most profitable to the church. I guess what I am trying to say is unless the paint was directly spilled on us, then dont get involved. Paul became involved because he was the apostolic authority that the church had submitted to. Also, it is one thing to say, when someone, even someone in such a high profile status does this, look how profitable it was for him? Not so much, so in essence if we want to live a life of freedom, but also be profitable in that freedom, then we should avoid this pitfall that is unprofitable. This is to say, Im not judging someone's heart or intent of where they are with God, but I am stating oh, I am learning from someone's mistake. There is a difference between judging (testing and weighing something) and judging (condemning something). As none of us are Todd's apostolic leadership, none of us have an authoritative right to speak into his, and condemn him to his sin. What we can do with the situation is this: 1) Pray. 2) Respond in love. 3) Test and weigh the situation or evaluate the situation and see that if I live my life in that way it is not profitable. It certainly has not been profitable to Todd. So all of that to say, if we do this, we do not compromise holiness, but actually enable and empower holiness to effect the situation.
What would happen if instead of criticizing Joyner and Bill and condemning Todd and the process, we actually enabled holiness in our own lives and infused it into the situation by praying life, responding in love to those who do have “paint” all over themselves, and learning from the situation that we set a boundary in our life as a safeguard. Im not sure if this makes sense at all…but ya…this is what I have been seeing for myself, and I have found for me, it makes my freedom in Christ very profitable. =)
I keep wondering why 'Joel's Army' is in the list of alleged sins… weird.
Hi Lindy,
First, The Romans and Hebrews chapters do not have to do with Christians judging other Christians, in the sense they have a right. Infact Paul rebukes the Roman church for doing that in Romans 2, instead commending them to let God judge their hearts, presenting the same principle that Jesus laid, the same measure by which you judge will be used against you. Hebrews 13 says to regard our leaders highly, Hebrews 12 speaks to us though on the discipline of God, but no where in this chapter does it give us as the church room to be involved in the process.
With that said, I want to address regarding Paul and how he handled the Corinthian church in context of what was happening to the church. When you are reading the correction of the Corinthian Church you cannot separate one point to make a point without understanding the context of what was happening to the church as a whole. The entire local church had been caught up into major sinful lifestyles…debauchery, sexual immorality, ect., taking advantage of the complete freedom that comes in Christ. (see 1 Cor 6:12) and looking at the situation as a whole, we understand Paul, as an apostolic authority to that church is bringing correction to the entire church there, not just individuals. He is bringing in individual examples to show what is happening in the church as a whole. Paul was a leader who was close to the church and situation and was also someone trusted. Also we should mention that is was PAUL who was the one who had a right and responsibility to bring correction to the man, not the body. Paul does come down on the “local leadership” of the church for not bringing correction, again, not the whole church. Paul tells us that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable, and then gives the church guidelines for what would be most profitable to the church. I guess what I am trying to say is unless the paint was directly spilled on us, then dont get involved. Paul became involved because he was the apostolic authority that the church had submitted to. Also, it is one thing to say, when someone, even someone in such a high profile status does this, look how profitable it was for him? Not so much, so in essence if we want to live a life of freedom, but also be profitable in that freedom, then we should avoid this pitfall that is unprofitable. This is to say, Im not judging someone's heart or intent of where they are with God, but I am stating oh, I am learning from someone's mistake. There is a difference between judging (testing and weighing something) and judging (condemning something). As none of us are Todd's apostolic leadership, none of us have an authoritative right to speak into his, and condemn him to his sin. What we can do with the situation is this: 1) Pray. 2) Respond in love. 3) Test and weigh the situation or evaluate the situation and see that if I live my life in that way it is not profitable. It certainly has not been profitable to Todd. So all of that to say, if we do this, we do not compromise holiness, but actually enable and empower holiness to effect the situation.
What would happen if instead of criticizing Joyner and Bill and condemning Todd and the process, we actually enabled holiness in our own lives and infused it into the situation by praying life, responding in love to those who do have “paint” all over themselves, and learning from the situation that we set a boundary in our life as a safeguard. Im not sure if this makes sense at all…but ya…this is what I have been seeing for myself, and I have found for me, it makes my freedom in Christ very profitable. =)
Friends,
I do not condone all the gossip and slandering of Bro. Bentley if he has already publicly repented of his sins, but however our sins have consequences that cannot be avoided, the scripture reads, “God will not be mocked whatsoever a man soweth that shall he reap.” I believe if we are mature in the things of the Lord we will recognize, people will talk about you regardless, but its one thing when you give them something to talk about. This is why we are not to bring God's name into dispute, because when we do these kind of things occur whether believer or not. Do we remember after David's sin was exposed, the LORD himself through the prophet said, “Because you have hated my commandments, I shall raise up evil against you out of your own house, the sword shall never depart from your house, and you shall never know peace again” (consequences). Just because we repent we should not think, thats its going to be smooth sailing after, for the scripture verse I just quoted also says beforehand when David said after exposure “shall I die” the prophet replied, “you shall not die, for God has put your sins to the side” but evenso we find “consequences.” Yes it is true we cannot judge the inner working of anothers heart for the scripture reads, “let us not judge one another anymore, but rather if we are being a stumbling block in our brother's way.” But let us not be naive to the workings of God to chastise us for our foolishness, for God will send “evil” upon us for our foolishness, when Israel as a nation sinned against God, he said, “I will cause you to be a byword.” I pray for Bro., Bentley to have the courage to not condone all the slandering and gossiping, but to understand the reasons, for God the Father always understands, but he never condones, for David never attempted to escape judgement for his sin, but manfully understood and accepted it, may we all have the courage to do the same. Loving you all.
Friends,
I do not condone all the gossip and slandering of Bro. Bentley if he has already publicly repented of his sins, but however our sins have consequences that cannot be avoided, the scripture reads, “God will not be mocked whatsoever a man soweth that shall he reap.” I believe if we are mature in the things of the Lord we will recognize, people will talk about you regardless, but its one thing when you give them something to talk about. This is why we are not to bring God's name into dispute, because when we do these kind of things occur whether believer or not. Do we remember after David's sin was exposed, the LORD himself through the prophet said, “Because you have hated my commandments, I shall raise up evil against you out of your own house, the sword shall never depart from your house, and you shall never know peace again” (consequences). Just because we repent we should not think, thats its going to be smooth sailing after, for the scripture verse I just quoted also says beforehand when David said after exposure “shall I die” the prophet replied, “you shall not die, for God has put your sins to the side” but evenso we find “consequences.” Yes it is true we cannot judge the inner working of anothers heart for the scripture reads, “let us not judge one another anymore, but rather if we are being a stumbling block in our brother's way.” But let us not be naive to the workings of God to chastise us for our foolishness, for God will send “evil” upon us for our foolishness, when Israel as a nation sinned against God, he said, “I will cause you to be a byword.” I pray for Bro., Bentley to have the courage to not condone all the slandering and gossiping, but to understand the reasons, for God the Father always understands, but he never condones, for David never attempted to escape judgement for his sin, but manfully understood and accepted it, may we all have the courage to do the same. Loving you all.
Remember when Swaggart was having sex with a prostitute — ? In a TBN special about this, Jack Hayford wisely counseled that he needed to step down from ministry. Paul Crouch said, basically “he's repented, he's forgiven, put him back in the saddle.” I paraphrase. Well, Swaggart got back in the saddle. And got caught again. How is this different (recognizing the difference between being with a prostitute and unbiblically remarrying), here? HOW is this different? Because some people are saying along with him that he deserves to get back in the pulpit, vs. Swaggart elevating himself to that place? This man might be God's greatest gift since sliced bread. But if we don't do things God's way – the biblical way – then we will not get Biblical results. If we did it His way maybe we could get 5 more Bentleys. Or Bentley would be squared. But as it is we are cutting corners. And this is going to hurt a lot more before it's all over.
Go back to your bible and see how both Jesus (in Revelations) and the Apostles (in the Epistles) were very comfortable associating people by name with their ideas and actions.
The problem with what you are affirming is that you wrongly assume that because Jesus and the apostles brought correction that we too should do it. You are misunderstanding proper biblical government and process. Todd's apostolic authorities have full right to speak about his issues. We however do not. For them it's discipline, for us it's gossip and/or slander.
Remember when Swaggart was having sex with a prostitute — ? In a TBN special about this, Jack Hayford wisely counseled that he needed to step down from ministry. Paul Crouch said, basically “he's repented, he's forgiven, put him back in the saddle.” I paraphrase. Well, Swaggart got back in the saddle. And got caught again. How is this different (recognizing the difference between being with a prostitute and unbiblically remarrying), here? HOW is this different? Because some people are saying along with him that he deserves to get back in the pulpit, vs. Swaggart elevating himself to that place? This man might be God's greatest gift since sliced bread. But if we don't do things God's way – the biblical way – then we will not get Biblical results. If we did it His way maybe we could get 5 more Bentleys. Or Bentley would be squared. But as it is we are cutting corners. And this is going to hurt a lot more before it's all over.
Go back to your bible and see how both Jesus (in Revelations) and the Apostles (in the Epistles) were very comfortable associating people by name with their ideas and actions.
The problem with what you are affirming is that you wrongly assume that because Jesus and the apostles brought correction that we too should do it. You are misunderstanding proper biblical government and process. Todd's apostolic authorities have full right to speak about his issues. We however do not. For them it's discipline, for us it's gossip and/or slander.
Friends,
When I was in the Marine Corps and in a postion of leadership, I found myself not only having to be accountable to my superiors and peers, but moreso to my subordinates because I was the one they were in more close contact with. We must remember the Lord said those of us in leadership should not pattern ourselves off of the way the world leads. When a spirit of pride came upon David, and God struck down several thousand people, David once again manfully accepts full responsibility and says, “Lord let this sin fall upon me and not upon the people who are not guility of this sin.” It appears we have not this kind of leadership in the body of Christ anymore, it appears all things are to be condoned instead of accountability and responsibility which brings forth true repentance and cleansing. It appears we want to be so-called accountable to trustee boards and bishoporic boards of review than the people we are supposed to be “SERVING.” I'm reminded of Rehoboam son of Solomon, who when seeking counsel about how to deal w/the people asked the elders' whom said, “lift the burden of your father from off the people, and they will serve you” and of course we find he sought the counsel of those who agreed w/him the younger men of priviledge said, “don't listen to these people, do what you will.” I sometimes believe in our attempts to show mercy and compassion it is nothing more that pacification that were giving, were called to be meek not to pacify. And we must also remember at times the people did not want to follow proper leadership no matter how accountable or reponsible they were both old and new testaments speak of this, but it also spoke of reckless leadership and how God would deal w/both, God said to the people, “I will give you pastors and teachers after mine own heart when your ready to receive them” and to the leadership he said, “woe to you who lead my flock astray.” Friends, I could be wrong but when the church begins to compare itself w/secular government ways of running things, then the very things that make us different such as “accountability and responsibility” and the desire to answer to those whom we shepherd over begin to fade. How did Christ show his accountability and responsibility to us, by tying a towel around his waist and washing his disciples' (or subordinates) feet and going to the cross and doing for us what we couldn't do for ourselves, how did the Apostles show accountability and responsibility to us, by under the influence of the Holy Spirit tell us not only of the mighty and wonderous acts under the influence of the Spirit, but also of there lack of discernment, discipline and patience. But my hope still lies in the Lord, who said and has given us “pastors and teachers” after his own heart, but sadly those are the ones' we do not want, those who will show us what true leadership is, by being able to look into mens' hearts, first of all there own. And does that happen by surrounding yourself w/people who will keep us accountable and also constantly examing ourselves to see were we be in the faith. I have a wife and a close friend who keeps me accountable and I can tell you theres nothing more refreshing and loving, is it always comfortable of course not, but I'm reminded, “a wise man loves correction.” Loving you all.
Friends,
When I was in the Marine Corps and in a postion of leadership, I found myself not only having to be accountable to my superiors and peers, but moreso to my subordinates because I was the one they were in more close contact with. We must remember the Lord said those of us in leadership should not pattern ourselves off of the way the world leads. When a spirit of pride came upon David, and God struck down several thousand people, David once again manfully accepts full responsibility and says, “Lord let this sin fall upon me and not upon the people who are not guility of this sin.” It appears we have not this kind of leadership in the body of Christ anymore, it appears all things are to be condoned instead of accountability and responsibility which brings forth true repentance and cleansing. It appears we want to be so-called accountable to trustee boards and bishoporic boards of review than the people we are supposed to be “SERVING.” I'm reminded of Rehoboam son of Solomon, who when seeking counsel about how to deal w/the people asked the elders' whom said, “lift the burden of your father from off the people, and they will serve you” and of course we find he sought the counsel of those who agreed w/him the younger men of priviledge said, “don't listen to these people, do what you will.” I sometimes believe in our attempts to show mercy and compassion it is nothing more that pacification that were giving, were called to be meek not to pacify. And we must also remember at times the people did not want to follow proper leadership no matter how accountable or reponsible they were both old and new testaments speak of this, but it also spoke of reckless leadership and how God would deal w/both, God said to the people, “I will give you pastors and teachers after mine own heart when your ready to receive them” and to the leadership he said, “woe to you who lead my flock astray.” Friends, I could be wrong but when the church begins to compare itself w/secular government ways of running things, then the very things that make us different such as “accountability and responsibility” and the desire to answer to those whom we shepherd over begin to fade. How did Christ show his accountability and responsibility to us, by tying a towel around his waist and washing his disciples' (or subordinates) feet and going to the cross and doing for us what we couldn't do for ourselves, how did the Apostles show accountability and responsibility to us, by under the influence of the Holy Spirit tell us not only of the mighty and wonderous acts under the influence of the Spirit, but also of there lack of discernment, discipline and patience. But my hope still lies in the Lord, who said and has given us “pastors and teachers” after his own heart, but sadly those are the ones' we do not want, those who will show us what true leadership is, by being able to look into mens' hearts, first of all there own. And does that happen by surrounding yourself w/people who will keep us accountable and also constantly examing ourselves to see were we be in the faith. I have a wife and a close friend who keeps me accountable and I can tell you theres nothing more refreshing and loving, is it always comfortable of course not, but I'm reminded, “a wise man loves correction.” Loving you all.